The Great Defection: Fr Crean's account of indefectibility discussed with Stephen Kokx

In this interview with Stephen Kokx from Integrity, we discussed Fr Crean's account of the Church's indefectibility – where it is accurate, and where it falls short.

Jun 26, 2026

In this interview with Stephen Kokx from Integrity, we discussed the indefectibility of the Church.

(WM Round-Up) – On Friday 26 June 2026, I appeared on Integrity Magazine’s podcast with Stephen Kokx to continue our new series about the indefectibility of the Church, and my long article ‘Spotless and Unsullied’ – Indefectibility and the Extended Vacancy.

The conversation focused on Chapter II: Fr Crean’s doctrinal exposition considered.

Spotless and Unsullied is the third part of my response to Fr Thomas Crean OP’s article The Perpetual Visibility of the Catholic Church Under the Pope.

Much of what Fr Crean writes about indefectibility in this article is correct; however, it overlooks or obscures extra elements of this attribute of the Church, and this allows him to use it in an argument against “sedevacantism.”

Topics in this interview included:

Fr Crean’s doctrinal exposition of indefectibility – in what it consists, where it is accurate, and where it falls short
The Faith – religious liberty, and the attempts to reconcile it with the Church’s teaching
The Sacraments – infallibility of universal disciplinary laws, and why criticism of the Novus Ordo is different in kind to criticism of the Pope St Pius X breviary reforms, etc.
The Hierarchy

We will be releasing Chapter II of Spotless and Unsullied for all readers next week. But you can read it NOW in the book-length article discussed here:

Spotless and Unsullied – Indefectibility and the Extended Vacancy

(NB: It is not necessary to have read Radically Insufficient or Zero Marks before reading Spotless and Unsullied.)

Other parts in the Zero Marks series:

‘Radically insufficient’ – Reply to Fr Crean on the Church’s visibility, Part I
‘Zero Marks’ – Why the Conciliar/Synodal Church is not the Catholic Church (Reply to Fr Thomas Crean) (All chapters and conclusion)
- Introduction, and Chapter I: Unity
- Chapter II: Holiness
- Chapter III: Catholicity
- Chapter IV: Apostolicity as a Mark
- Chapter V: Apostolicity as a Property
- Conclusion: ‘Hovel in the Valley’
Spotless and Unsullied – Indefectibility and the Extended Vacancy (Part III)

The previous interviews

This interview was a follow up to our previous conversations of the other parts of my response to Fr Crean.

Here is the first interview, on the visibility of the Church (Part I):

Here is the second, on the property of unity (Part II, Ch. 1):

Here is the third, on the property of holiness (Part II, Ch. II):

Here is the fourth, on the property of catholicity (Part II, Ch. III):

Here is the fifth, on the note of apostolicity (Part II, Ch. IV):

Here is the sixth, on the property of apostolicity (Part II, Ch. V):

Here is the seventh, on the conclusion to Zero Marks:

Here is the eighth, on the first chapter of Spotless and Unsullied:

Thank you to Stephen for having me on again. I hope readers of The WM Review enjoy it – and give Kokx News a follow too.

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